Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

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SolarEnergy
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:40 pm

smootharnie wrote:I know you hate the theoretic bla bla from people that cant swim ;) , so I will try it next time. Curious how much head stays under water if I only bend the neck and try to keep the rest of the body in the same position.


I don't hate the theoretic blabla from people that can't swim, but am not crazy about when such a basic item such as relation between buoyancy and gravity centers are being challenged by someone that can't experience these. Reasons is that I've been teaching that stuff to over 1000 swimmers over the last 20years. But I reckon in the same time, and have reckoned that it's often the way some people learn, ie by challenging.

I at least expect from anyone that challenges me, to achieve = results. And I'm definitive. Fixing balance issues shouldn't take weeks.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby woody » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:21 pm

Hi Solar
Have you got a particular route to fixing balance issues?
Woody
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby Mike A » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:46 pm

This matter of balancing front and back - in terms of static balance, it all hinges on where the centre of mass is relative to the centre of bouyancy. Both of these can move when you reshape the body in any way, so it isn't just as simple as moving weights along a fixed-fulcrum balance.

But another important fact to remember, thinking more about dynamics, is that you cannot lift anything out of the water without exerting a downwards force on the water somewhere (basic Newton's Laws). The key thing is where that force is applied (or rather how it's distributed). If you lift your head (whilst lying flat, arms by sides), chances are most of that force will be applied around the lower trunk and hips, causing sinking of the back end.

Now, as a general principle, for front-to-back balance it should be a Good Thing to keep as much weight ahead of the head as possible as much of the time as possible, because it helps to balance around the centre of floatation (a key principle of Front Quadrant Swimming). But if that weight (ie the arm) is not floating, or falling under gravity, but being held suspended in the air, it can only mean that a fair bit of force is pushing down on the water further back.

That's my take, anyway.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby woody » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:19 pm

Thanks Mike
I was experimenting today from the curled up position extending arms then legs . My legs come up but i dont think quite enough . Lift my head they sink as you say but lift my hands out a touch as arnie said and they went straight to surface .Must be as they are so far in front of the head they exert a downward force and push the front down more .
Doesnt help my swimming tho i want to bring my legs up a touch more in normal swimming .
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby smootharnie » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:09 pm

Tried some zero speed floating myself. Lifting the arms a bit was very effective to raise the legs. Effect of head movement was less clear.
When I was in a horizontal position and raised the head veeeerrrry slowly for about 30 degrees up, the legs went up a little bit, but when really stretching the neck trying looking to the front the legs dropped.
Dont know what use this has in normal swimming. At low speeds where swimming is closer to floating front quadrant swimming should keep the legs a bit higher.
At higher speeds things could be different.

Anyway, I have experienced more relaxation and higher legs when dropping the head a bit while swimming. Still 1/3 head above water.

Had a good clubswimmer looking at my stroke, and everything looked good/normal. No headlifting or fishtailing while breathing it seems. Still feels I am lifting a bit while turning the head.

With the picture of the near floating 80 plus oldies from Solar in mind going to approch the slow swimming from the other side. Not slowing the stroke down, but making a bit of propulsion from a zero speed floating position.
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SolarEnergy
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:22 pm

woody wrote:Hi Solar
Have you got a particular route to fixing balance issues?
Woody


Yes, but very (read too) basic one though. But yes, I do ensure that my people are at least, minimally on balance.

Here's a thread

http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=83712

It was supposed to act as a raw material place holder for me to write an article upon. I haven't gave up, but I do suffer from time constraints. Sorry it's long etc, but it very well depict how in just 90min, I took someone from point A (200-300m perpetually) to point B (2k perpetually).

Bottom line, get to float first, statically. Then learn to do it whilst being in motion, then get to experience this feeling in your full stroke.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby woody » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:38 am

Thanks Charles
Really good stuff I had been trying to float statically by putting arms forward then legs out from the curled up position in clip 1 and getting frustrated by legs not going far enough up.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:05 pm

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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby woody » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:59 pm

Hi Charles
Thanks I had seen that and is why I was trying to do it and being unhappy about not getting legs all way up.

By saying "you too question that it were you being sarcatic ( I am rubbish at knowing when someone is being)
:lol:

I prefered your clips which I think say a swimmer needs forward movement to get the legs up


Woody
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The best time to learn to swim was a long time ago the second best time is today

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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:50 pm

I was sarcastic indeed.

Not because everything about his clip is wrong, but simply because the general message it tries to get through is (wrong). And I find it so sad...

My own humble experiment is far more humble in its promises, but it remains true for all, including for the sinkers.

Haules missed a superbe opportunity to get an actual realistic message out, by claiming that everyone should achieve perfectly horizontal position given that they follow the process described in his clip.

Note that (and since it's a hot topic on SS these days), TI does not recognize the content of this clip as being valid, or even useful!. They (TI) remain the Balance masters.

I'd even go as far as claiming that this clip is false representation of what floating and being in balance actually is, and would love a few rounds in a thread with Haules, if he ever dares to show up somewhere to defend his theories.

Paging JS Haules?
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby woody » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:03 pm

Thanks Charles
Will do it your way
Woody

Ps so happy as you are with the way the other thread has turned out on both sites (the title changed) :D and now peace has broken out between the two giants of swimming why shouldn't you haul someone else over the coals :oops:
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:12 pm

smootharnie wrote:Tried some zero speed floating myself. Lifting the arms a bit was very effective to raise the legs.


I'm one of the rare theoriticiens in this world to defend this theory, having found a practical application, in butterfly though.

But I'm afraid that this does not apply to the context which is being discussed here.

To run this test and expect valid results, you'd better off performing it on your back, not on your belly. And keep the arms out for a period of time that is long enough (ie, a good 10sec should be enough).

So. Simple. Lay on your back, float with both arms outstretch over your head. Then lift the arms outside the water, and keep them up. Notice what happens to the lower body.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby smootharnie » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:42 am

HI Sollar, Why do you think floating face down is stupid? Is it reallly that floating horizontal face down is more difficult than face up?
I will try some more floating. Reaction is indeed very slow and you must wait for the body (legs) to move. Takes quite some time for legs to go up,
and when on the back requiers some stomach crunch like effort to help them as far as I can remember.

The guy in the 2005 example sure has a very hard time keeping the legs up... Luckily my legs are a lot lighter.

One more question. KIcking on my back is "fastest", kicking on the side (one am in front) slowest (almost zero speed).
Some kicking thing or balance/streamline?
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:07 pm

smootharnie wrote:HI Sollar, Why do you think floating face down is stupid?
Did I really say stupid?

I'd say the reason I recommended that you rather test on your back, is to allow sufficient time for the whole dynamic to take place. Face buried in the water, you have no more than 2min, and can perform a very limited number of repetitions. Note, it's actually easier to float on your belly, so with a Front Snorkel, I'd favor belly, but without any means of breathing, I'd favor back.

Normally:

Step 1: You float
Step 2: You raise your arms outside the water
Step 3: Your legs will try to compensate going up for a very short time (this is what I've found out at fly)
Step 4: Without sufficient support, your legs won't be able to anchor and since the belly is not supported neither, even if the legs were, I doubt that it could influence positively the upper body
Step 5: Since you now have more weight outside the water, it will get the whole body to sink, not just the lower body

So when you test it on your back, I'd expect water to sneak into your nose, before the whole body starts to sink.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby Mike A » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:03 pm

But surely you can't really compare raising arms lying on your front with raising them lying on your back? Lying on your back, the tendency will be for the flexing to take place at the shoulders and hips; lying on the front, the hips will be near their limit of movement, and the shoulders not far off their's, so a lot more flexing will take place in the lower back. In short, the way your body changes shape will be different lying on your back from lying on your front. Or am I missing something?
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:09 pm

No you're not missing anything, but between two bad choices, one must go for the less bad. Obviously the challenge on your back becomes to hold tight core.

Just Haules' experiment alone may push someone to its limit of holding one's breath (belly position)

I doubt this experiment is worth finding for a better fit, as keeping masses outside the water is in no way a means of improving balance. But if testing it with the Front Snorkel is possible, then this should be the way.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby smootharnie » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:55 pm

Tried some more today. A lot more. Some 30 minutes only floating and trying to move with dead legs and no breathing.
Solar has a good point that when you are raising the hands too far out of the water, you are in for trouble.

Up to a point stretching the body and arms gets me up to a horizontal position with little parts sticking out of the water at the feet belly and hands.
If that position is stable tried to raise the hands. Could go until hands and underarms where out the water, and the face went under.
Legs didnt move much. Kept in this position for abouit 5-10 secunds and raise the hands further, but then everything collapsed.(and I was fed up with all the water in my nose :lol: )
Thinking about this.It is impossible to get more mass out the water than your natural buoyancy allows. So if 5% of the body is sticking out of the water while floating, best what you can do is distribute these 5 % evenly accros the whole body=floating horizontal.
Sticking the arms up too much just alters the shape of the body, and brings the weight of the arms closer to the lungs, so the lever that can bring the legs up gets shorter.

Sucking the lungs full of air makes the balance reactions to the movements much more direct. Raising the hands a bit from stretched out gives instant upward movement of the legs.Raising them further has no use.
Conclusion so far: Keep body straight and only make small adjustments to alter balance position.

Furher trying some balance floating in side position, and swimming to the other side of the pool without using legs and no breathing.
What arm movement best to use to keep the body stable and horizontal?
Doggy paddle, underwater recovery was good fun and quite fast. Rapid wide high elbow pulling near the surface seemes the most effective to keep legs high, but gives some sideways fishtailing.
On the side almost 90-100 turned from face up position and padling with on arm above the body also quite effective. Head completely submerged in this sideway paddling without roll, so no chance ever to breathe.

Normal freestyle arm stroke and breathing bad for leg position. The combination of arm out the water and keeping head high enough to breathe is difficult.

Solar might think, what the F#$%ck this guy is doing. Some people just have to learn the hard way ;)
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:04 pm

smootharnie wrote:Solar might think, what the F#$%ck this guy is doing. Some people just have to learn the hard way ;)


I've known this, don't worry. I've also known that some learn by arguing. Being argued over such basic stuff ain't my favorite way to get asked for some information, but this is very widespread (the tendency to learn by arguing).
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby smootharnie » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:30 am

Perpetual swimming.
Some get it in an hour, it took me about 6 months. :shock:
Until a few sessions ago, my max swimming distance was 50 m.

Only did 25 to 50 meters and then reststroke. 50 meters at 1.30/100 m pace @ 16-17 strokes/25m, about 44 SPM bilateral breathing. followed by 50 m breaststroke at 2.00/100m.
This "sprint"training focussing on technique ,did increased speed and dropped stroke count gradually, but maximum distance stayed 50m.
It was difficult to slow this stroke down and keep any sense of rhythm.
After all this talk about stroke rate tried to shift some gears down, shorten the stroke and speed it up.
This felt weird in the beginning. Instead of stretching out I was now sticking the arm in at 30-45 degrees and pulling right after that .
The strokes felt incredibly short.
Start counting these short strokes and rates that could be sustained for longer distances and that turned out to be 50 spm, 22 strokes/25 m at 1.45/100m. Still a low strokerate, but it is a starting point for building endurance and more speed.
This stroketype gives a better connection between the body roll and the start of the catch. It feels if the braking of the body roll movement is transferred to forward movement of the pulling arm. At very low stroke rates the body roll has little momentum, and gives less anchor for the pull.

Starting point was a balanced position face down and a small amplitude kick. While keeping the sense of the horizontal balance taking very small babystrokes that hardly take any effort and rolling in the stroke rhythm to get the breath. In this way your your engine is running almost in neutral, you are getting air, and and you let the strokelenght determine your speed.
If you want to slow down because you are getting out of air, stick your arm in steeper and pull it out earlier, but let the engine run at the right speed for you that gives you a nice sense of rhythm , but takes little pulling effort. If you breath every 2 strokes you get enough air.
IN this way you can lie almost still. Powerboat burbling with your miniature strokes, and slowly make your strokes a bit longer to start moving forward.

It is fun to start with certain strokerate and very small stroke distance(=speed) and then slowly increase the strokelenght during a lenght to end with your maximum swimspeed. Like using your own human Continue Variable Transmission.
Varying your strokelenght also gives some feedback in what direction you are moving the water, get some feel what happens when you lenghten your stroke at the same speed.
When going from a long to a short stroke you feel the water hitting your upper arms and slow down to a speed that belongs to that short strokelenght.\
When you lenghten the stroke it gives the same feeling as going to a higher gear pedaling uphill.

I now understand how these people can swim forever with what seems a normal stroke, but moving slow. They use very little arm force. That is why you see a lot of woman swimming this way.

So in the end I am back to where I started at 22-24 strokes/25 m and a preferred 2 stroke breathing rhytm at the leftside.
Difference is that now I am more aware of my catch, pull and push and can regulate between this short scrappy stroke and a long gliding stroke at will and use it as a throttle. Also learnt to keep the head in line and use different breathing patterns.
My breastroke CSS is about 1,45/100 m, and the freestyle is about the same now Freestyle should be about 25% faster, so I am looking forward to get it down to 1.20/100m! :lol:

Havent used fins or pull buoys for the last 2 months.
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Re: Arnie with a fin addiction. Is that a problem?

Postby SolarEnergy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:42 pm

Nice work, considering that I monitored our best distance swimmer (in Canada) to stroke 16-17 sometimes 18 strokes per 25m, for a critical swim speed of 1:01.5/100m (measured, not estimated), I'd say that 21-22 strokes per 25m is a great starting point.

Do not solely train at CSS speed (that'd be sad really). Go well under, this is where you should spend most of your mileage at the moment, ie under your CSS speed.
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