Biggest Loser Competition!

[FROGGY]

hello paul

I'm in for the contest Ihave just completed yesterday my first set 12*100 meters and it was quiet hard , on the first set Iwas on a 1:35-1:38 then I' ve paced to a worst time 1:44 and at the end I stabilized on a 1:40 , can you tell me how i need to work in order to pace at 1:35 rather than 1:40 , what kind of progress can i expect ?

[Paul Newsome]

1) 1:53
...
10)2:14
...
avg. = 2:05

so what's next? How do I fix this?

Hi tcoplen and Froggy

Well done on trying this set for the first time. What we are seeing here is literally a pacing issue...setting off too fast and "blowing up" and then being incapable of holding the initial pace. VERY common as described here:

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2009/09/ ... shock.html

...this is very frustrating for you and believe it or not, so many swimmers swim this way in all their harder swim sets, constantly failing to pace properly and in doing so get a) frustrated and b) see a lack of general improvement by effectively failing to train at a consistently "high" level. In both cases, had you both set off at your average pace in the first interval, both of you would have maintained this and the whole set would have felt that much easier. The problem with this is that a set like this is ingrained in your mind as "needing" to feel "hard" right from the word go - the idea of setting off at 2:05 and 1:40 respectively (despite this being the average pace) would seem and feel ludicrously slow. Why not try it? I bet you find it hard to control yourselves well enough to do say 4 x 100m at this pace with 20s rest between each one. The fact is though, if 2:05 or 1:40 is your actual "threshold" pace here, swimming an entire set at this pace will give you a MUCH better training effect than sporadic intervals above and below this pace.

How can you control / develop this? I'm not here to sell you anything but the reason I am SO pedantic about this whole aspect of your preparation is that this has been my single biggest weakness as an endurance athlete - the ability to pace myself correctly (at any distance). Using a Wetronome last year to help pace out my intervals to a achieve an average goal pace of 1:27 to 1:30 per 100m for the 20,000m Rottnest Channel Swim was entirely due to the self-learning I achieved with the Wetronome set to Lap Times. Using it, I would set the beeper to beep every 45 seconds and simply make sure that I was at each 50m point every time it beeps. You rapidly learn just how inherently bad most of us are at pacing ourselves at the start of a training set or continuous swim and how far ahead of the beep you typically are in the first 10% of the swim. Really eye-opening. Think of it like that red-line that moves down the pool at the Olympic Games which visually shows viewers how close the lead swimmer is to a new world record - sometimes its really amazing to see how rapidly it catches (and often overtakes) the swimmer in the last 25m.

Of course you could just lift your head to see the pool clock on every lap or check your stopwatch etc, but the easiest way I've personally found is with the Wetronome. Simple stuff done well.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

[Paul Newsome]

I'm going to achieve it by reducing dead spots/glide, upping stroke stroke rate and generally working on technique mastery/improvement.

Welcome Simon and thanks for the intro.

Quick question - any idea what your natural Stroke Rate is for your given average pace at this moment in time? Where does it put you on our Stroke Rate Chart at http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html ?

Cheers

Paul

[bstt]

So whats next,; do we do the 15x100 every week as a workout?

God, I hope not I have been doing 3 swims a week; one ME workout (100's) but was thinking of bumping up to 150's. Am I better off sticking to 100's?

I also did the stroke rate test, had the life guard count my strokes, swam a 1:33, 10-11 strokes per 10 seconds, and averaging 20-21 strokes per length. I am in the white zone on the stroke rate chart. Not sure if swimming the 100's or working on technique will bring the speed down.

[mackerelman]

Well I did this today and I shouldn't beat myself up for not pulling it off as well as I'd hoped. I had been brining my 100mtrs
in in 1.25 -1.30 for the last few weeks so I was expecting to hold 1.30 no bother but that didn't last long, I started slipping on the fifth repeat and my low point was 1.40 somewhere about 10 but in general my average was 1.35 for the majority of the 15 100s. Suppose I've not really been doing that many 100 sprints before so I should be kind to myself but it hurts when you know you can swim faster but ain't. But that was where I was at today.

So what's the story Paul, do you suggest we keep swimming this set each session during the week until we do the time trial or what?
Thanks and Peace out!

[Paul Newsome]

Hi guys

These are all good questions. I'll ask you to take a look at:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7

...with respect to my recommendation of what to do per week and equally to indicate the value of not simple a technique-only program or a hard-swim program, but a combination of the two - both are equally important.

NB. Don't think of this set as a SPRINT set!!! Its not at all. You are trying to hold your fastest, MAINTAINABLE pace. The emphasis is on the "MAINTAINABLE".

Here's something to ponder: if you swam a 1000m time trial as hard as you could and your average pace was 1:40 per 100m giving you a finish time of 16:40, but your 100m splits started off at 1:32 and went up to 1:48 as you "died" - is this the best way to swim that time trial? Is it a true reflection of your ability? What about if you set off at 1:40 and held this? How easy would 1:40 feel at the start if you were capable of doing 1:32 pace for the first 150m? Would you be telling yourself, "this is not really a time trial - I am not going as FAST as I could - I'm holding back"? What if you finished off with a 16:40 as well in this case? Which was the better swim? Which is likely to leave you feeling smoother with your stroke and less fatigued at the end? If you're less fatigued at the end does this then mean its "not really a Time Trial"? Are you going to then think to yourself, "well I managed 1000m in 16:40 which felt better than my first attempt and I feel I can go faster so I'll start off a good bit quicker this time and go out in a 1:34 instead and see if I can hold that"? Will you be able to after no further training improvements. Unlikely, at least, not yet. Trying 1:38 though might be possible...its that subtle but over 1000m would give you a further 20s improvement.

Here's another way of thinking about it, when Grant Hackett (the grand master of pacing) swims the 1500m and averages just a shade over 58 seconds per 100m, is he thinking that 58 seconds for his first 100m is "not hard enough" when the guy next door to him goes out in a 55? Or does he know through experience that he is able to hold this pace to within 0.4s whereas the other guy will surely blow-up and come back to him? Its definitely the latter. This takes control, and its that level of control which you all need to exert on your swimming of these sorts of sets.

Check out http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html which contains several session ideas for this (what is termed CSS - or Critical Swim Speed).

Again, without sounding like a used car salesman - our new training plans (available at http://www.swimsmooth.com/trainingplans.html ) have all this information and methodology baked into them so that you don't have any of the guesswork involved when structuring these sessions. Plus, they're a lot of fun too!

Cheers

Paul

[SimonBoote]

I'm going to achieve it by reducing dead spots/glide, upping stroke stroke rate and generally working on technique mastery/improvement.

Welcome Simon and thanks for the intro.

Quick question - any idea what your natural Stroke Rate is for your given average pace at this moment in time? Where does it put you on our Stroke Rate Chart at http://www.swimsmooth.com/strokerate.html ?

Cheers

Paul

Paul,

I'm swimming on Sunday so I'll make a note of my starting natural stroke rate for my average pace. I'm guessing it will be quite low, somewhere between 40 & 50, which for my 100m times, looks like the right stroke rate.

If for example my guestimate is correct, am I right in assuming that to improve my times, I do need to increase my stroke rate, however, if I'm off the mark and my stroke rate is higher than I think, then I might have to work on stroke length first?

Regards

SImon

[Paul Newsome]

If for example my guestimate is correct, am I right in assuming that to improve my times, I do need to increase my stroke rate, however, if I'm off the mark and my stroke rate is higher than I think, then I might have to work on stroke length first?

Regards

SImon

Yes, that is indeed correct Simon. What we have to remember here is that swimming is always a balance about these two aspects. The work that you have done previously has focused heavily on development of efficiency through better body position, added body roll and therefore increasing stroke length. This is not a bad thing at all. The subtle difference here is in the subtleties and how people interpret this "message", i.e. if long is good, longer must surely be better? This is not necessarily the case and this is where optimising the balance between your stroke rate and length comes into play.

Measuring your stroke rate and obviously knowing how many strokes you typically take per length are a good step towards finding this optimal balance and experimenting with the "seasaw" between the two. Obviously we have provided the Stroke Rate Chart as a guide to where you should be at a given speed, but the very best way of determining which direction you need to be pursuing at a given point in time is through the use of video analysis. Do you have any video you can post here? Upload it to YouTube and we can have a look.

What I'd really be looking for is if you're effectively over-reaching as you extend forward and in doing so do what most swimmers do in the pursuit of the longest possible stroke and inadvertently drop your elbow and wrist and effectively apply the brakes as you extend forward. There is some good info on this at: http://swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=185 (see particularly the Stage 2 extending forward and you'll see what I mean). Then, by working to remove this deadspot you will naturally increase stroke rate a touch, maintain momentum with little or no loss to stroke length. We're not talking churning your arms over like a madman! Far from it. We're talking about tuning into that rhythm of a nice cyclical stroke. "Pausing" or being "Patient" before you pull through is not IMHO an efficient freestyle stroke...you're simply decelerating whilst you do this, dropping your elbows etc and this is the last thing any of us want with our strokes!!

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

[velvetparlour]

arrrggghhh, bloody flu

back on the antibiotics
reduced to one major set consisting of -
one tablet on the 8:00 hour cycle, attempting to consistently MAINTAIN this pace for another five days, shouldn't need a wetronome for this.
Will report back in after a few reps

Julian

[SimonBoote]

If for example my guestimate is correct, am I right in assuming that to improve my times, I do need to increase my stroke rate, however, if I'm off the mark and my stroke rate is higher than I think, then I might have to work on stroke length first?

Regards

SImon

Yes, that is indeed correct Simon. What we have to remember here is that swimming is always a balance about these two aspects. The work that you have done previously has focused heavily on development of efficiency through better body position, added body roll and therefore increasing stroke length. This is not a bad thing at all. The subtle difference here is in the subtleties and how people interpret this "message", i.e. if long is good, longer must surely be better? This is not necessarily the case and this is where optimising the balance between your stroke rate and length comes into play.

Measuring your stroke rate and obviously knowing how many strokes you typically take per length are a good step towards finding this optimal balance and experimenting with the "seasaw" between the two. Obviously we have provided the Stroke Rate Chart as a guide to where you should be at a given speed, but the very best way of determining which direction you need to be pursuing at a given point in time is through the use of video analysis. Do you have any video you can post here? Upload it to YouTube and we can have a look.

What I'd really be looking for is if you're effectively over-reaching as you extend forward and in doing so do what most swimmers do in the pursuit of the longest possible stroke and inadvertently drop your elbow and wrist and effectively apply the brakes as you extend forward. There is some good info on this at: http://swimsmoothforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=185 (see particularly the Stage 2 extending forward and you'll see what I mean). Then, by working to remove this deadspot you will naturally increase stroke rate a touch, maintain momentum with little or no loss to stroke length. We're not talking churning your arms over like a madman! Far from it. We're talking about tuning into that rhythm of a nice cyclical stroke. "Pausing" or being "Patient" before you pull through is not IMHO an efficient freestyle stroke...you're simply decelerating whilst you do this, dropping your elbows etc and this is the last thing any of us want with our strokes!!

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul,

Just done my 6 x 250m lengths in a PB time of 33:59, knocking 1min50secs of my best time!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got my wife to video me from the shore and whilst I can't view the whole stroke, I was interested in how the stroke looked compared to how it feels.

It feels relatively smooth with a moderate stroke rate.
However, from watching it back, my hands enter the water very early, somewhere between my eye level and top of head, where as Mr Smooth enters the water when he is nearly full extension. Does this make any difference?
It looks like I'm crossing, but I only really rotate the recovery, as soon as my hands enter the water I drive them forward, but I do look like I enter a bit to close to my centreline.

So, I will endeavour to reach further before my hands enter the water, straighten my recovery and enter the water in a more shoulder width position.

I measured my natural stroke rate at 60 strokes a minute, which for my approx 100m time of 2mins15secs is a bit high.

However, there are a few of factors to consider:
1. The adjustments to my stroke as highlighted above
2. The distance I am covering is further than 1500m, but as I am not exactly certain, I am using 1500m as I know it is at least that distance, so my 100m times will be slightly better than 2mins 15secs.
3. My straight line navigation does stray, so I generally do a little more distance due to this also.
4. Finally, as I am training in open water, there must be a factor by which 100m times vary compared to pool times, and thus the BMI chart for open water swimming may vary from that for pool swimming.

Taking these points into consideration, I believe my stroke rate to be not far off and I will continue to try and improve my technique and speed.

I use the analogy of learning to drive, at first gear changing, mirrors, braking, accelerating etc. etc. all seem impossible to do together, but it does happen. My stroke at the moment gets gradually better and more natural feeling by the session, with longer intervals of swimming subconsciously, before I start thinking about all aspects of the stoke and then it falls apart for a bit!

I am really pleased with progress after only 3 sessions implementing Swim Smooth techniques.

Thanks for all the advice and I hope that some of my observation may help some one else.

Regards

Simon

[Paul Newsome]

Thats great news Simon - well done.

What I'd really like to see you do is to head for a pool swim (I know its 50 miles away), but you could then try and get some better video footage to view, get an accurate picture of your SR, and just as importantly know what pace per 100m you are actually holding so that all of the above is known rather than guestimated. Not essential, but I do think it would help you and would be worthwhile and we'd then be able to make a more accurate assessment of your stroke.

Let me know if this is possible.

Cheers

Paul

[bstt]

> Check out http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html which contains several session ideas for this (what is termed CSS - or Critical Swim Speed).

Thanks Paul....

How would you suggest progressing through these sets. I have been swimming 3xweek. One endurance (4x400's), one CSS (100's), and one misc ( mostly 200's with pull bouey). The 15x100 were hard for me to maintain 1:34ish, but I did get in a groove and find 100's easier to swim than longer sets.

I was thinking of bumping up the 100's to 150's or 200's, but not sure I'll be able to maintain that speed. Should I stick to the 100's or start getting used to 200's even if they are slower? How many week would it take to go from 100's to 200's to 400's at CSS pace?

[h2oskier]

This sounds like a great challenge! I, like some the others posting here, live in the States and only have access to a 25 yard pool, but I look forward to trying it out anyway.

[h2oskier]

So I did my first set today... Swam 12 x 100 yds @ 2:00 and swam 1:27 - 1:31 all the way with an average of 1:30. I tried to really relax the first 100 to get it in pace, but it still ended up being the fastest. Is that really a problem at this point though? After the first one I settled very nicely into the 1:29-1:31 pace. The only problem is that when I go into a continuous swim, I do not seem to be able to hold this pace. Will that come as I improve my strength and technique?

[Paul Newsome]

So I did my first set today... Swam 12 x 100 yds @ 2:00 and swam 1:27 - 1:31 all the way with an average of 1:30. I tried to really relax the first 100 to get it in pace, but it still ended up being the fastest. Is that really a problem at this point though? After the first one I settled very nicely into the 1:29-1:31 pace. The only problem is that when I go into a continuous swim, I do not seem to be able to hold this pace. Will that come as I improve my strength and technique?

Hi h2oskier

With ~30s rest between each 100m, you'll always be able to swim these intervals faster than what you could swim a continuous 1km (for example). Most people should be able to hold within 4 to 8s per 100m of this though for a continuous swim of this distance...the key is to know this and make sure that the first 100m is done at this "steadier" pace and not at the interval pace itself.

Hope this helps.

Paul

[h2oskier]

Thanks! Yes it does and it will give me something to focus on my next time in the pool when I will swim a longer continuous 1000 yd and see what my pace is.

[thompsongk]

OK - finally manged to get to this over the weekend and here's my 12 sets off 2:15:
1.46.9, 1.45.5, 1.45.7, 1.45.8, 1.45.4, 1.44.7, 1.42.9, 1.42.3, 1.43.3, 1.43.9, 1.44.9, 1.44.2

I have to say though that if I was able to insert a Borg scale for RPE on these, I'd start at a 3 and quickly go to 4-5 by half-way, with the last 3 sets being at 8-9.
This is pretty much what happens with my tri swims, I start slow enough, but I am still completely knack'd at the end (Borg would have invented an 11 if he'd seen me come out of the water).

I am trying to get my pacing ready for the Ironman Arizona.
Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Geoff

[velvetparlour]

hey all

did the 20 x 100 set again today as the middle 2k of a 5k program

wanted to be conservative with effort because this ridiculous flu virus is like the energizer bunny - keeps bouncing back at me

last time I did it (last week) the reps varied between 1:11 and 1:18, averaged about 1:15

this set went with a safe 1:20 touch (1:40 cycle)
pretty much was bang on the target time for the first 3 reps - felt fine
so I increased pace a tiny bit and went 1:18 for the rest of the set (on the odd rep I got a little enthusiastic and touched on 1:15/16)
was a pretty comfy pace - not quite CSS I think, but desperate not to relapse into flu so being conservative
will tweak it up a bit next week and see how it feels

another good benchmarking idea from the SwimSmooth Team
thnks

Julian

[Paul Newsome]

OK - finally manged to get to this over the weekend and here's my 12 sets off 2:15:
1.46.9, 1.45.5, 1.45.7, 1.45.8, 1.45.4, 1.44.7, 1.42.9, 1.42.3, 1.43.3, 1.43.9, 1.44.9, 1.44.2

I have to say though that if I was able to insert a Borg scale for RPE on these, I'd start at a 3 and quickly go to 4-5 by half-way, with the last 3 sets being at 8-9.
This is pretty much what happens with my tri swims, I start slow enough, but I am still completely knack'd at the end (Borg would have invented an 11 if he'd seen me come out of the water).

I am trying to get my pacing ready for the Ironman Arizona.
Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Geoff

Geoff, that is a really well paced set. Can I suggest you try it on 2:05 next time?

Cheers

Paul

[Paul Newsome]

another good benchmarking idea from the SwimSmooth Team
thnks

Julian

Good to hear that you're feeling better VP - nice work!

Paul