Ankle flexibility. What to expect from stretch exercises?

[smootharnie]

Hey Solar,

I have got a test for you:
Your training a lot of stiff ankled runners I suppose. I am sure they will love to see you facing the same problems that they are having.
A good trainer should have an understanding of the clients problems.
So, to find out how ankle flexibility is influencing kick efficiency, you could firmly tape your feet in 4 different angles relative to your shine bone: 180/150/120/90 degrees.
Then time kicking a lenght at max and medium effort, for the different feet positions.
Then make a nice graph: X axis: feet angle, Y-axis: time per lenght.

Possible conclusions:
- even with stiff ankles it is possible to get a decent propulsion. Get the rest of the leg action sorted.
- stiff ankles are really slowing things down. Need some stretching.

Could well be you have done this already. Curious about the resulsts.......

[SolarEnergy]

Bah I don't mind enough about these things to go through all this, as here on my side of the ocean, I don't know why, but people just.... kick. There are those who are slower, those who are faster, everyone smiling at eachother sharing good time. That's my experience as a trainer (like you say), and it's been consistent since 1988, when I first started to coach.

Beside, there's only one way to be successful as for feet angle, is to let the foot relax, and by doing this, the foot will naturally take the only angle that leads to optimal stretch.

That's physics. I'm pretty sure a strong guy like you can easily kick for 10-15 pounds of force downward every kick. If you let the ankle relax, a force is exerted against the top of your foot, which stretches the foot hopefully. Any attempt to place the foot in this or that angle can only be achieve through inducing tensions somewhere, which could be detrimental in preventing optimal stretch.

That's not to mention those cramps you get under the foot trying to point your toes in this or that direction.

There's no choice with this, and there's nothing you should attend to do to change this. Success depends on combination of flexibility and relaxation. The less flexible, the more relax you got to be. I know of only one rule that actually works, and it's this one.

But... But, that being said, I've fancied running a scientific study for a long whilst now, since I'm in a position to run one, coaching a Ph.D in exercise physiology which happens to be a researcher and teacher at the U where I coach. And my idea was to use metrics exactly like yours, except I was going to get help from an expert in biomechanics to help this you know, if I run this, it'll be as part of a team, and I'll put together a good team so that the conclusions be irrefutable.

What I had in mind was to pick only people that never swim. That's it. So it would be a mandatory condition that you never go to the pool. Simple. Pretest, take measurements, run kicking time trial. Perform ankle stretching alone, with no visit to the pool. Post test, take measurements. Then run another time trial and notice what we all know, an improvement will be seen across the board given that the stretching program resulted in to noticeable improvement in flexibility, and that in spite of never visiting the pool.

Possible conclusions:
- even with stiff ankles it is possible to get a decent propulsion. Get the rest of the leg action sorted.
- stiff ankles are really slowing things down. Need some stretching.

I agree with this entirely!

[smootharnie]

When you look closely at the leg movement and what contributes to the best propulsive efficiency you can find a lot of factors that could play a role:
- kicking speed
- relative movement of upperleg to bodyline
- relative movement of lowerleg to upperleg
- relative movement of foot to lowerleg
- position of feet relative to each other (toes facing inward or not)
- Flexibility/stifness of connection of these parts
- etc etc

So, a lot of things to do right or wrong. The japanes are building a swimming robot to measure and alter all these parameters independent of each other and then see what happens.They have stil a lot of work to do to make a livelike swimmer....
I was talking about the angle between foot and lower leg, and you are referring to the desired flexibility in the joimt between these parts.
Thougt You were a perfect victim for this experiment because a 180 degree angle (feet in line with shinbone) seems a relaxed position for you.

If flexibility is an important factor you should also measure difference in flexibility next to difference in range of motion before and after the stretching exercises.Difficult.
Just kicking insnt as straightforward as it seems.

[SolarEnergy]

I agree with your points, hence the importance of picking subjects that will not train in the pool, in between the 2 tests, as we don't want them to improve in regards to the other aspects you mentioned.

Did I tell you when I really learned to kick? It was in a set. Listen, I don't remember the exact details about this set, but I remember that the pace was significantly faster than 60sec for a 50m. Was something like 100m on 1:50 probably. On 1:45 I would probably have been dropped. But there was probably a whole bunch of them, so scary set. And at one point I was probably barely making it in 1:48 1:49 (leaving 1-2sec of rest before having to go out for another 100) then the coach yelled at me (I was proud, I wasn't that much of a good swimmer, more of a noddle compared to these guys) BEND YOUR KNEES AND HIT ON TOP OF THE WATER AS FAST AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN!!!

I did, it worked, that kept me into the set. I was trying to apply the common wisdom, which I'm not against by the way. It just doesn't work as well for me. Tapping on top as fast as I can is what works best if I need to survive hard sets. I lower speed, I couldn't care less.

What did the coach did that day? He forgot about the theory, saw that the angle of attack my feet where making relative to the surface of the water was not optimal (hence the BEND YOUR KNEES), and saw that my kicking rate was too low, given I didn't seem to have those huge powerful legs that the sprinter had (hence the ON TOP OF THE WATER AS FAST AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN).

That immediately changed the angle of attack, I was now all of a sudden evacuating more water backward, and since the feet were now half in the water, half outside the water, less drag resistance, obviously more rate, effect was instant, I was probably holding 1:45 repeatedely, with no risk of drifting slower. My flat out 100m at the time was probably in the neighborhood of 1:36 1:37. So hitting 1:45 with 5sec rest was quite an instant improvement.

That's sweet memories, these coaches mate, you should have seen this. This same guy yelling at me is still actively coaching, he was in London this year, probably the number 2 here in the country, next head coach of our national team.

CAVEAT. I tried to train a runner this manner in the pool, tons of very hard kicking sets, injured both of his ankles, we really feared that we had screwed his season up. (turns out we did not)

[smootharnie]

Results after about 2 monts of easy stretching:
First month 1 minute a day sitting on feet. Second month 2 times a day 1 minute sitting on feet. Towel under top end of feet to stretch a littla over 180 degrees.
Something is happening, but it is going slowly. kicking time still a long 40 sec/25 m, but i have to admit, only done about 50 m only kicking drill in a whole month

[smootharnie]

post an update with all this talk about kicking.
Build a DIY stretching tool
you need:
- planklike something
- old sock
- tape
Stick plank in sock, stick your foot in, tape. Towel under heel and stretch!
My ankles dont want to go much further, maybe yours are better.

[SolarEnergy]

post an update with all this talk about kicking.
Build a DIY stretching tool
you need:
- planklike something
- old sock
- tape
Stick plank in sock, stick your foot in, tape. Towel under heel and stretch!
My ankles dont want to go much further, maybe yours are better.

Thanks mate!

Is your kick getting any better?

[smootharnie]

Tried some lenghts. Down from 40 sec/25m to 32-35 sec, so there is some progress. Dont do much pure kicking, about 200m /week@ 70% effort..
Litltle frustating, there was a girl doing a few hunderd meters kicking with an easy 20-25 sec/lap Beautifull elastic legs action.