My worry about Swim Smooth

[chdoyle]

Hi,
From what I have seen about Swim Smooth is that the ultimate technique is that shown by Jono Van Hazel. I agree it's incredible but I think it's a stroke almost unreachable by most swimmers.
He is pumping out so much propulsion with his legs that his head floats on the surface and appears to be on a swivel independent to his body. It removes the balance problem most of us have from swimming. When a boat speeds up it raises on the water. Well this guy's propellers raise him so well his arms don't look like they even need to provide extra propulsion, therefore the great smoothness to the stoke.
As with most swimmers my technique is best when I sprint. The trick is to have good technique when you go slow.
Most of us, especially triathletes like me who don't want to use their legs too much, our legs are egg beaters so we need other technique to achieve balance such as pushing our chest down, head down, FQS etc. Jono Van Hazel doesn't seem to exhibit using these techniques, on the other hand when I watch Sun Yang I see theses principles in action.
So as I say, if Swim Smooth is designed to make us swim like Jono I think I will have problems. I think his style is great but not definitive and not for everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers and Happy lengths...

[Harrybeardie]

I agree with what you say, it's also very difficult in the uk to follow the swim smooth videos, which are great, because a lot of public pools won't let you wear fins which are required for a lot of the drills. As you say some emphasis on things that can help your swimming other than a great leg kick would be helpfull. After watching the paraolympics it is more obvious to me that you can achieve a good swim using other methods, those guys were great, many having limbs missing yet achieving times I could only dream of.

[Karlstine]

Well. The thing is that I have Jono/Mr Smooth as an ideal to attain. I can't swim like him but my body works like his. Thankfully no appendages are missing that I have to overcome.
At the essence of SwimSmooth there are two ideal types. The smooth and swinger. Either is good and both are appropriate for an athlete. If I were missing my legs I wouldn't have a balance issue. Not poking fun just being realistic. The paraolympians are awesome and in some respects don't have the obstacles of drag that others have.
The two swim types are not easy to attain. Swim smooth would have to find another sport if they were.

[SolarEnergy]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

http://www.swimtypes.com

For what it's worth, I'am yet to see a Shinji #2. Even Terry can't. He's swimming his variation of that stroke, which better fits his body type.

An very interesting thing which is worth noting is that I believe, without having discussed this with my two friends Paul and Adam, that the choice of NON EVF models, both for Mr.Smooth, this virtual freestyler and Jono is deliberate. It's not by coincidence. It's easier to mimic the stroke of a swimmer that doesn't go beyond a certain point in term of flexibility requirement.

Another thing that you may find interesting, as it's what I believe people love the most about Jono.

Forget about the technique for a minute. What does people find amazing about Jono? Is it the particular gestures the kick and stuff? Or this incredible stability? Water line always at the same level. 1 goggle in the water whilst he breaths. Perfectly symmetrical. Both arms doing exactly mirror to the other side. Euhh.... Body perfectly horizontal. A vessel that travels quite fast in the water in a perfectly hydrodynamic way.

These, I believe, are just effects. Consequences, of doing things right. Various strokes can give you the same result, including but not limited to TI stroke. It's as simple as that. So that's one main theme at Swim Smooth in fact. You don't need to look like anyone else, as the pop start 'Sting' would say, "Be yourself, no matter what they say..."

Be symmetrical. Keep water line at the same level. Have a body that's perfectly aligned (no zig zag). Don't cross over. Breathe in an economical way. Do it your way, not Jono's way, as long as it's comfy, economical etc..

Maybe you won't look like Jono, but that's just fine, hence the recognition of 6 swim types. The proof is in the pudding. This is what Swim Smooth teaches you know? It's very important to understand this as it's as strong as a messsage as Kaisen and mindfulness and streamiling would be to TI for instance.

A stroke is just a stroke, let us all never forget about it. The speed achieved with this stroke depends on athletic background + hours of training etc... But stability and symmetry can be gained. And if you need a hand, we're certainly more than willing to help you.

We're pragmatic people with highly flexible mind.

[SolarEnergy]

I agree with what you say, it's also very difficult in the uk to follow the swim smooth videos, which are great, because a lot of public pools won't let you wear fins

I truly think this is a matter of choice. My friends Adam and Paul know all too well that I hate fins. Just received a sponsorship from Finis recently, was offered fins and I asked the Rack as a replacement, which is the guizmo you use to stretch out your ankles and make your own fins.

I'm in charge of 50 athletes these days, who's pace range from 2min45/100m to quite fast, and none are wearing fins, never like in Zero fins. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not against their use, not at all, but everything Swim Smooth teaches can be done without them, at the U where I work we have a big box full of fins, people are not only allowed to use theirs, they can borrow some. I just never use them, regardless of the level, regardless of the drill.

I finally let myself convince to accepts a pair of zoomers from Finis, and I'll purchase a few sets as for some people they're a good thing. But for me, these things hurt my ankles, like in a single 200m of kicking with fins can injure me for 15 days. That's because of me rubber feet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akuxFXdhPEo

Here, if it can reassure you, single arm bilateral breathing with a pull buoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1OpQ_Mzmkc

[Mike A]

I've managed to do all the SwimSmooth drills without fins, and I'm a very ordinary fitness swimmer (43 years old, currently doing about 1m34s for 100m, 7m25s for 400m). I'm sure fins help, but they're not essential.

My biggest problem following SwimSmooth was that I started timing myself and using a tempo trainer too soon, before I'd got enough basics in place to really benefit (probably my fault rather than SwimSmooth's). I can see why SS insists on the importance of timing (you need to know what's working and what isn't), but I think starting this process too soon is a mistake.

There's a concept which Shaw Method coaches talk about called "End Gaining" - I think this idea comes from Alexander Technique in general. "End Gaining" is the mistake of focusing solely on the goal ("the end") rather than the processes needed to get you there ("the means"). In its extreme form, "end gaining" would describe the kind of swimmer who focuses purely on fitness and strength development and doesn't want to strip down and rebuild their technique.

Anyway, at some point I made the decision to stop timing, to ditch the tempo trainer, and do a lot of swimming focusing purely on technique, balance, breathing etc. This has really paid off for me, and I've now just started reintroducing the timing and swim fitness elements.

[gavinp]

My take on this is that as the saying goes "different horses for different courses".

We are all different and like to do things in many different ways. If we all did things the same way it would be a pretty boring life! Just look at the many variations of yoga as a for instance - what i'm saying is that one type of yoga may not suit someone, but a different type could and they may stick with it for life, or even try other methods over time.

For me, the same thing applies to swimming and the variation of methods that you can learn to swim. I myself was brought up from the age of 4(ish) being instructed under the ASA(UK); As an adult getting back into swimming in my 30's I looked around and found some other methods that really didn't suit me at all. For me, Swimsmooth works, and as a triathlon coach for juniors and adults I find it works too - though of course, it doesn't work for everyone as outlined above but I must say I can count on one hand the people that it hasn't worked for.

At the end of the day, Mr Smooth is just a tool. A medium for demonstration purposes visualy describing certain aspects of the swim technique. They had to model it on someone, so why not a pro who demonstrates all of the qualities required of a good swim technique? As SolarEnergy says, there are 6 different swim types outlined which we all elude to in one form or another, so you ARE correct Jono is not the definitive style and it isn't for everyone, but we kind of like it here

[chdoyle]

My take on this is that as the saying goes "different horses for different courses".

But that phrase doesn't really fit into a swimmer learning to swim correctly.
One thing is that we all agree that personal modification is the key to succes. Another thing is the ability of each of us to recognise and modify our training and stroke to suit us. That modification can only be achieved by an advanced swimmer. As a swimmer who 'starts from zero' with each new method you must trust it and follow it 100%. That's what I did with TI until I discovered after some months the infamous overgliding tendency and came here.
Just as Terry's course is designed so you swim like him, I ask (before I order the book) here, is the Swim Smooth method designed to make you swim like Jono? As I said I don't think that method is good for an 'average' swimmer and most average swimmers don't have enough knowledge to tweak the drills or method to adapt it to their liking or abilities. Most will never have such an effective kick to be able to swim like Jono, and if you don't have that kick you won't have the rest of the stroke. Maybe you will achieve a psuedo version of his stroke but that sounds like not the best way to learn something.

Mr.Smooth (animation) leaves something to be desired. First I must say I am a professional animator (hand drawn type not 3D) and Mr. Smooth is not very life-like. Yes, he goes through all the motions of a correct stroke but it doesn't look like a human being doing it because he is defying some laws of the human body interacting with water that only the most profound analysis and understanding would correct. Maybe I wil offer to the folks here a better hand drawn version

[gavinp]

My take on this is that as the saying goes "different horses for different courses".

But that phrase doesn't really fit into a swimmer learning to swim correctly.

Of course it does - different types of people (there's your horses) will learn to swim in different ways (and there's your courses).

Simple

..and I would say that no, the SwimSmooth method isn't designed to make you swim like Jono.

[Harrybeardie]

Well this has certainly started a discussion, my comment re the Finns was just that. In public pools in the uk you cannot use Finns gloves or other things, your lucky if you can use a kick board. I am an inexperienced swimmer, I have purchased the swim smooth videos and have got a lot out of them. I realised quite quickly that I was never going to swim like mr smooth but have found his stroke interesting in lots of aspects. I must admit for people like me, older, 63, late to swimming, a runner, with inflexible ankles, that other tips that could make you a decent swimmer would be usefull alongside the ideal on any videos. It's funny really because when people start to be unhappy with say being able to swim like terry of swim smooth then anorak comes to mind, don't mean to be rude, but I'd bite their hand off to have that balance and poise in the water. I don't think I'd over worry about dead spots either. The fact is there are a lot of us out there who just want to be able to swim a decent 800 metres say in 20 /23 minutes were not all hunkering after great swim times, it's the participation and the challenge of something new that I enjoy. You will always find someone who will tell you that your elbow is not quite right or your pull us crap, if it suits you be happy.

[SolarEnergy]

This discussion is of a great value to my mind. It brings nicknames we don't see very often to express themselves and I really love it.

I'm particularly interested in learning more about opinions such as the ones expressed by both you and MikeA earlier, really.

I truly like the fact that the original poster was bold enough to express him/herself with no inhibition.

This is really all good.

I'd go as far, as stating that the original poster, chdoyle, could benefit from continuing working on the TI material a bit, but parallel to this downloading the Overglider guide and work on a few concepts found in there as well. The end result of combining all this would likely lead to a smooth type stroke (that's obvious). Best of both world some might say...

As for fins, I don't think I'll ever change my take on that, as I've been coaching for 19 years now, without them. I've address clientele across the whole spectrum, from disable people, to elderly suffering from artrhosis, Trisomia 21, beginners who's age ranging from 18 months to 80yo, elite swimmers, triathlete, fast club age group swimming, long distance swimming (marathon swims). Never used fins, except maybe for teaching the butterfly stroke. So...

I think their best value is to stretch the ankles. When you kick with them, it does exerts a force on your ankles which can, given you let them loose, stretch them. But that can be achieved with a 30$ Finis Rack. Fins also allow - and there I agree with Swim Smooth entirely - to get a hold on more difficult drills, faster. Without them, the process may just be a bit longer, but that's about it. When you're doing 6-1-6 without fins, and that you don't have flexible ankles, you just move more slowly. But if no one wears fins, that's not at all an issue right? I even teach a variation of UNCO without any arm for propulsion, and no one uses fins neither there so....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZfaB4fH6IE

[Harrybeardie]

Agree lots of opinions are good other wise it would be boring, I can't use fins in anycase as they give me cramp years of running I think. I am also a poor kicker but work to try to improve within my limits at least I can swim front crawl now I was unable to swim at all a couple of years ago. I dream of being able to be a mr smooth but it's unlikely.

[Karlstine]

at least I can swim front crawl now I was unable to swim at all a couple of years ago. I dream of being able to be a mr smooth but it's unlikely.

I couldn't do a flip turn before last weekend but now I can. My wife always told the kids "can't never could".

An d as I write this I am reminded of all of the banter on this site that has helped encourage me to progress. Thus another good reason to tune in.

Karl

[Adam Young]

Hi chdoyle,

Great questions! Yes, Jono has many advantages that most of us don't, not least great posture and flexibility. Most of what he does though is from great stroke technique, great feel for the water and awesome stroke timing - and in fact more than 90% of his propulsion will be coming from his arms stroke, especially when swimming at relatively moderate paces (for him!!) as he shows in his demonstration clips.

Is it possible for most swimmers to swim with that style of stroke? Yes absolutely albeit with modifications to suit you as an individual (see below). You you might not gain much propulsion from your leg kick but that's OK, a light flutter kick will serve you very well to keep your legs high in the water and really doesn't use much energy.

I think the big point in your post is what's the ideal stroke model for 'normal' swimmers to follow. The best answer to that question is that there's no such thing as a 'normal swimmer' - because just as you might have sinky legs and poor flexibility, many women have great natural buoyancy and good flexibility. Some people have large hands, others small, some long arms, some fast twitch biased, some slow twitch, some want to focus on open water and others are pool based sprinters. Trying to put everyone in one basket doesn't work for that reason and is something that many swimming programs have fallen foul of over the years.

So for yourself, you might need to use a slightly lower head position and focus on your kick technique to improve (e.g. kicking from the hip not the knee and removing scissor kicks) but others might be better off with a much higher head. Some swimmers naturally suit a shorter quick stroke style (epitomised by the 'swinger') while others are better off with a longer smooth stroke. Be very careful of adding too much glide into your stroke though, as a triathlete that will make you especially inefficient in open water and you will slip down the field.

Hope that helps!

Adam

BTW front quadrant just means that both hands pass in front of the head and Jono most definitely does that - he has awesome front quadrant timing. I think you mean catch-up style?

[andresmuro]

Hi,
From what I have seen about Swim Smooth is that the ultimate technique is that shown by Jono Van Hazel. I agree it's incredible but I think it's a stroke almost unreachable by most swimmers.
He is pumping out so much propulsion with his legs that his head floats on the surface and appears to be on a swivel independent to his body. It removes the balance problem most of us have from swimming. When a boat speeds up it raises on the water. Well this guy's propellers raise him so well his arms don't look like they even need to provide extra propulsion, therefore the great smoothness to the stoke.
As with most swimmers my technique is best when I sprint. The trick is to have good technique when you go slow.
Most of us, especially triathletes like me who don't want to use their legs too much, our legs are egg beaters so we need other technique to achieve balance such as pushing our chest down, head down, FQS etc. Jono Van Hazel doesn't seem to exhibit using these techniques, on the other hand when I watch Sun Yang I see theses principles in action.
So as I say, if Swim Smooth is designed to make us swim like Jono I think I will have problems. I think his style is great but not definitive and not for everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers and Happy lengths...

High upper body, i.e., head shoulders, etc., Has to do much more with posture than with kicking hard. Having an arch on your lower back, having your toes pointing straight back lifting your chest, will give you a good body position and bring your body up.

I swim with a very relaxed two beat kick and have a high upper body without my lower body sinking.

feet pointing back will prevent them to sink straight to the bottom. Arched lower back pulls on the hamstrings and prevents the legs from sinking. Chest forward helps bring the upper torso up. Kids learn this right away by doing "proper" kicking. This means that the kick board does not go in front of your hands but under your arms which are kept straight with elbows locked. back is kept arched. Without flexibility, the first thing you'll notice with kicking drills is hamstring cramps. This is because the lower back is pulling against your hamstrings.

Try this, stand against the wall. Have your butt touch the wall. then have your shoulders and back of head touch wall. Bring arms up with shoulders touching ears, arms straight above, on top of each other. Finally, point toes.

or,

Lay flat on your stomach Arch your back slightly lifting legs at the hips and upper body with arms forward.

I show this to a lot of friends that are getting into triathlons and swim diagonal while kicking like maniacs. The simple arching of your back and the feet pointing back brings the butt up higher.

[chdoyle]

Hi,
From what I have seen about Swim Smooth is that the ultimate technique is that shown by Jono Van Hazel. I agree it's incredible but I think it's a stroke almost unreachable by most swimmers.
He is pumping out so much propulsion with his legs that his head floats on the surface and appears to be on a swivel independent to his body. It removes the balance problem most of us have from swimming. When a boat speeds up it raises on the water. Well this guy's propellers raise him so well his arms don't look like they even need to provide extra propulsion, therefore the great smoothness to the stoke.
As with most swimmers my technique is best when I sprint. The trick is to have good technique when you go slow.
Most of us, especially triathletes like me who don't want to use their legs too much, our legs are egg beaters so we need other technique to achieve balance such as pushing our chest down, head down, FQS etc. Jono Van Hazel doesn't seem to exhibit using these techniques, on the other hand when I watch Sun Yang I see theses principles in action.
So as I say, if Swim Smooth is designed to make us swim like Jono I think I will have problems. I think his style is great but not definitive and not for everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers and Happy lengths...

High upper body, i.e., head shoulders, etc., Has to do much more with posture than with kicking hard. Having an arch on your lower back, having your toes pointing straight back lifting your chest, will give you a good body position and bring your body up.

I swim with a very relaxed two beat kick and have a high upper body without my lower body sinking.

feet pointing back will prevent them to sink straight to the bottom. Arched lower back pulls on the hamstrings and prevents the legs from sinking. Chest forward helps bring the upper torso up. Kids learn this right away by doing "proper" kicking. This means that the kick board does not go in front of your hands but under your arms which are kept straight with elbows locked. back is kept arched. Without flexibility, the first thing you'll notice with kicking drills is hamstring cramps. This is because the lower back is pulling against your hamstrings.

Try this, stand against the wall. Have your butt touch the wall. then have your shoulders and back of head touch wall. Bring arms up with shoulders touching ears, arms straight above, on top of each other. Finally, point toes.

or,

Lay flat on your stomach Arch your back slightly lifting legs at the hips and upper body with arms forward.

I show this to a lot of friends that are getting into triathlons and swim diagonal while kicking like maniacs. The simple arching of your back and the feet pointing back brings the butt up higher.

Thanks for the info. Because my latest experience was with TI have been working on the downhill push chest down approach to get optimal position so your suggestions are fairly new. I don't concentrate particularly on my feet although I do suppose they are pointing back and not down otherwise I would get no propulsion from them. I have not worried about arched back, is there a drill for that or is it a 'remember to do it thing'?

[andresmuro]

Hi,
From what I have seen about Swim Smooth is that the ultimate technique is that shown by Jono Van Hazel. I agree it's incredible but I think it's a stroke almost unreachable by most swimmers.
He is pumping out so much propulsion with his legs that his head floats on the surface and appears to be on a swivel independent to his body. It removes the balance problem most of us have from swimming. When a boat speeds up it raises on the water. Well this guy's propellers raise him so well his arms don't look like they even need to provide extra propulsion, therefore the great smoothness to the stoke.
As with most swimmers my technique is best when I sprint. The trick is to have good technique when you go slow.
Most of us, especially triathletes like me who don't want to use their legs too much, our legs are egg beaters so we need other technique to achieve balance such as pushing our chest down, head down, FQS etc. Jono Van Hazel doesn't seem to exhibit using these techniques, on the other hand when I watch Sun Yang I see theses principles in action.
So as I say, if Swim Smooth is designed to make us swim like Jono I think I will have problems. I think his style is great but not definitive and not for everyone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers and Happy lengths...

High upper body, i.e., head shoulders, etc., Has to do much more with posture than with kicking hard. Having an arch on your lower back, having your toes pointing straight back lifting your chest, will give you a good body position and bring your body up.

I swim with a very relaxed two beat kick and have a high upper body without my lower body sinking.

feet pointing back will prevent them to sink straight to the bottom. Arched lower back pulls on the hamstrings and prevents the legs from sinking. Chest forward helps bring the upper torso up. Kids learn this right away by doing "proper" kicking. This means that the kick board does not go in front of your hands but under your arms which are kept straight with elbows locked. back is kept arched. Without flexibility, the first thing you'll notice with kicking drills is hamstring cramps. This is because the lower back is pulling against your hamstrings.

Try this, stand against the wall. Have your butt touch the wall. then have your shoulders and back of head touch wall. Bring arms up with shoulders touching ears, arms straight above, on top of each other. Finally, point toes.

or,

Lay flat on your stomach Arch your back slightly lifting legs at the hips and upper body with arms forward.

I show this to a lot of friends that are getting into triathlons and swim diagonal while kicking like maniacs. The simple arching of your back and the feet pointing back brings the butt up higher.

Thanks for the info. Because my latest experience was with TI have been working on the downhill push chest down approach to get optimal position so your suggestions are fairly new. I don't concentrate particularly on my feet although I do suppose they are pointing back and not down otherwise I would get no propulsion from them. I have not worried about arched back, is there a drill for that or is it a 'remember to do it thing'?

Thanks for the info. Because my latest experience was with TI have been working on the downhill push chest down approach to get optimal position so your suggestions are fairly new. I don't concentrate particularly on my feet although I do suppose they are pointing back and not down otherwise I would get no propulsion from them. I have not worried about arched back, is there a drill for that or is it a 'remember to do it thing'?

Thanks for the info. Because my latest experience was with TI have been working on the downhill push chest down approach to get optimal position so your suggestions are fairly new. I don't concentrate particularly on my feet although I do suppose they are pointing back and not down otherwise I would get no propulsion from them. I have not worried about arched back, is there a drill for that or is it a 'remember to do it thing'?

Ive gotten into long discussion about the pushing down of chest with Terry L. in another forum. He has stopped using this language a while back, since it confused a lot of people.

Regarding exercises for arching back, the best I can think of is kicking with arms straight, over kickboard, and head high and up.

[chdoyle]

Well in the real world, the pool, the pushing chest I think, becomes substituted by an attempt to swim 'downhill' (in me anywya). I find this sensation easier to command than 'simply' applying pressure, chest to water. Is the downhill concept still accepted??

[andresmuro]

Well in the real world, the pool, the pushing chest I think, becomes substituted by an attempt to swim 'downhill' (in me anywya). I find this sensation easier to command than 'simply' applying pressure, chest to water. Is the downhill concept still accepted??

Well, when you stand flat against the wall with your butt touching, bring your shoulders to the wall with back arch, and push chest up, it my feel as if you are bringing your chest forward (down). Maybe this is what TL meant. Im not a follower of TI, but there are lots of ideas that I find helpful for swimmers. Not sure what language they use currently, but their website, has a number of videos. I think that it is totalimmersionswimming.net, or.com

Try the position that I suggested with toes pointing backwards and let us know how it feels.

[SolarEnergy]

Ive gotten into long discussion about the pushing down of chest with Terry L. in another forum. He has stopped using this language a while back, since it confused a lot of people.

This simple mantra is still used by Swim Smooth though