sun yang 1500 stroke analysis

[Stuart]

Correct - Sun Yang did move to the 6BK for the last 100m (Shanhai, Aug 2011), and continued to pull away from the field to very end. But most remarkable maintaining his lead arm (front quad) anchor and added only one stroke in the last 100 @ 28 SPL and did so under 30secs/50m. His last 50 was as good or better than his first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ZMbiem-V8

I haven't found a full video of Sun Yang's 1500m from London yet. Anyone on this forum have one?

[SolarEnergy]

I referred to such a link earlier. Not sure if it's accessible from outside north america though.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/

Everything about London 2012 is accessible there, all swim events, all heats, not just the finals, etc...

As for Yang's 6bk, just look at minute 1:37, you'll see what I mean... (in your clip that is)

[Stuart]

Ahh - right. And if you notice that's when Sun breathes left and right in one stroke cycle normally after his turns to get more air. He does kick three opposite leg of breathing side. Other than that, primarily 4BK breathing on twos, and 2BK breathing on fours.

I didn't find Sun Yang 1500m full video from Londn site. Do you have the specific URL to the video? Any youTube videos out there yet?

[SolarEnergy]

You probably won't find any clip on youtube. The ctv link referred too earlier is your best bet.

[Mike A]

Do people really do backstroke in open water races? Someone needs to paint straight lines on the sky! In the sea, I can't even swim in a straight line on my front!

I find Andres' comments about natural swim type interesting - I always feel like I float fairly well, and I can't imagine ever being a swinger. But I do think within one's own style, one needs options and variations. Even within my limited abilities, I like to be able to vary the stroke length and pace, and switch between 2-, 4- and 6-beat kicking. Unless you're an outright sprinter, you need more than 1 gear!

I've seen some pretty decent swingers in the pool, often women. There's one woman who has a very straight-armed recovery, combined with a neat 2bk - you can spot her distinctive "Y" shape a mile off!

[SolarEnergy]

Bahhh, you never know.

Started working on a case in 2010 (ishh, already). Swimmer is 6feet in height, Ape Index +4 so that gives him a 6'4 arm span. PB of 21min40sec over 1500 OW back then.

I tried I tried I tried I tried I tried everything I could to train him as a Smooth, forget it.

Next (if he still dare to work with me), I got to turn him into a Swinger.

So it all depends on how fast you really want to swim, how fast you are at the mo, this gives you a gap, which could be expressed in term of pace/100m. If the gap is to big, if years trying to close it won't work, then a complete redesign may be required.

But you know, it mostly depend on how fast you are at the mo, and how fast you really want to be. Someone that has a goal of holding 1:45/100 will have more options that someone (like this guy I was talking about) who would like to go under 20min for 1500 (ie, 1:20/100).

Ryan Cochrane probably had the talent to build up his stroke as a classical smooth type. But possible that he would have concede far more than a small 9sec to Yang over 1500 in doing so. Therefore he did choose a simpler, less refined vehicle. But if it hadn't been his goal to try to beat Yang, if his goal had been to do well here in Canada, period, then yeah, Smooth, Swinger, whatever would have worked just fine.

The closer you get from your true limit, the less options you got. The more you have to go with what makes who you are, how you think and how you move, what you like, what you dislike. In the case of this athlete I failed with, he just doesn't like to think dammit, and there's nothing I can do. You can spend hours and hours trying to undo this recovery with palm facing outward, which sets up for crossing over the mid line, video etc... A week after, it's as if nothing had happened. These guys don't think. So we would aim for a simpler stroke, as simple as possible, cutting down on drag, then the rest will be a matter of boosting up the rate.

[SolarEnergy]

Always remember that the proof is in the pudding. Forum chat is one thing, how fast you swim is the thing (that matters the most).

[Karlstine]

Yep, you can't fool the clock.

[Stuart]

Yup - and I'm certain Sun Yang would agree with you too

[Gregos]

I have just returned from my most recent swim session after having been glued to the forum and videos of Sun Yang all weekend.
I tried to concentrate on 2 things. First it was Solars tips about trying to swim slowly at first so you can really concentrate on what you are doing. I tried this to try and "feel" where my body position was naturally to try and detect how much my legs were dragging. Secondly i kept picturing Sun's near 90 degree EVF during the pull and concentrated on achieving that.

To my utter amazement I have swam the best ever session. By doing the above i was able to see the floor tiles wizz by and i reached the end of the pool faster than expected as i was not gasping for breath and because i was concentrating on my form so much I did not notice how far I was swimming so the end of the pool came as a surprise on several occaisions! I cannot believe how something so simple in technique can make such a difference! I let the lady doing breastroke ahead of me in the lane get a good half way down her length before I sat off each time and even though i was trying to swim slowly as possible i had caught her by the end of the 25m pool.

I also experimented with my head position and although i thought i was looking at the bottom of the pool I think i may have actually been looking 45 degrees ahead of me. When I REALLy looked straight down I found that i swam smoother and my body position may have improved slightly? I also managed to get a couple of genuine popeye breaths in too without needing to over rotate my head for breathing. Maybe this head position will help me with breathing or maybe its a combination of that along with the slower approach meaning I was no longer gasping for air.

Sorry that there probably is not much useful info in here for people but i wanted to share a little success story with you seeing as it was peoples comments on the forum that lead me to try such techniques.
Thank you!!

[SolarEnergy]

The thing I found useful in your post is that it's not uncommon to experience breakthrough swims, ie major steps forward. And sometimes these occur after having read a book home, or having visualized a clip.

I talk by experience here as I remember that 20 years ago, after having read Swimming Faster, that had made me 5sec per 100m faster.

[dinghar]

Not sure if this has been mentioned. I'm new to swimming, but folks tend to tell me to keep my fingers together during the reach and catch. I immediately noticed that Sun Yang's fingers seem to be a bit limp and not glued together. Certainly very relaxed, but is there an additional rationale for this? Swimmingly, dinghar

[Gregos]

I have noticed this too. I have a PE teacher friend who is qualified to teach swimming ( not an actual coach however) and he told me this is th new method as by having the fingers slightly apart it does not mean that water flows through the gaps in the fingers. It actually creates some small amount of drag or something and actually creates a larger surface area for you to 'scoop' water back during the catch.

I have experimented with this myself and I have to say it does feel more powerful for me so it may have something to it. Also I would imagine that by having slightly limp flingers and more spread Sun Yang is able to get a better feel for the water?

[SolarEnergy]

I have mixed feelings regarding this.

People that actually manage to really develop a good feel for water are quite rare. It's probably due in large part because few people are seriously committing to sculling drills at the first place.

Not sure that it's the best idea, for someone that doesn't have a very good feel for water, to try and learn it the hardest way, ie with fingers apart.

I see so many things; great feel for water demonstrations are rarely among these. So please forgive my skepticism.

So my official take on all that is get to experience that through sculling. If you notice when sculling that it's easier fingers held together, at least learn to swim this way fist. You'll all have plenty of time later to try this *new* way (which isn't that new, as I was taught swimming in 1988 and it was already like that so...)

Someone that for instance lacks a bit in the flexibility side, that never actually work on sculling drills, that never really assess the stroke efficiency (one way or another), and that starts swimming with fingers open just because the best 1500m specialist in the world currently swims this way? Hmmmm, I'm not sure.....

If you notice, he keeps a goggle in the water at all time whilst breathing. This is already a better challenge to mimic I believe, and there again, very few people can actually do this.

[dinghar]

Thanks, Gregos and Solar Energy, for the feedback.

Solar Energy, do recommend any particular sculling drills?

Swimmingly yours, dinghar

[SolarEnergy]

Thanks, Gregos and Solar Energy, for the feedback.

Solar Energy, do recommend any particular sculling drills?

The 3 exercises provided by SwimSmooth on their Catch Master Class DVD are excellent.

Here's the first one, Sculling Drill in position #1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAUtm3apic

One other thing I may add regarding the fingers opened etc.... I'm yet to see clear footage of how these guys actually *pull*. What we see most of the time is how they setup for catch really. And that phases comes after the hand entry. Hand entry should be very relaxed. Therefore I'm wondering if they maintain this relaxed hand all the way through...

[Mike A]

I can see Charles' point, and I swim with closed fingers myself - but one thing I have changed as a result of this whole debate is that I no longer clamp my thumb tightly to the side of my hand - I leave it relaxed, sticking out slightly. When I was taught to swim (many years ago!) I was told to "cup" the hand and hold the fingers together tightly, with thumb tight to the side - however, doing this makes my wrists stiff, and I end up pushing water down at the front of the stroke, rather than getting that finger-tips-down position recommended by SwimSmooth. I think Paul commented a while back (either on here or on the blog) that some people find it easier to flex the wrist with the thumb sticking out - I'm one of those people!

[Nayan]

I found this little note interesting:

http://www.posetech.com/FORUM/finger_spacing.pdf

The idea seems to be that is that at high swimming speeds (in fact 2.5meters/sec so elite pace) water may get trapped between slightly spaced fingers and sort of combines with them to form a bigger 'paddle.' Thats one theory anyway.

Maybe the effect wouldn't be so great at the kind of speeds mere mortals move their hands / swim at.

[SolarEnergy]

Again though, I'm yet to see swimmers actually pulling in this manner. I'm not expressing skepticism here, but just a wish.

[chdoyle]

I haven't got through all the posts here yet but one of my first observations of Sun is that he only, or 90%, breathes on one side. One of the first things my coach here told me was to breathe on both sides.
That might be an interesting technique to get to get more air as opposed to bilateral where you make a non breathe stroke inbetween.
But what I would do differently than Sun is swim each length breathing from a different side to avoid overcompensation problems etc.